John: I’m super delighted to be in Sydney this afternoon with Deborra-lee Furness, the internationally acclaimed actress and passionate supporter of children and defender of their human rights across the globe. Deb and her actor husband, Hugh Jackman, have traveled to Africa, Asia, and South America and seen up close the plight of literally hundreds of thousands—in fact, millions—of children around the world without permanent, loving families, and they’ve set out to do something about it.
Deborra-lee is the founder of not one, but two non-profit organizations devoted to creating a better future for children in need: Adopt Change in Australia and Hopeland in the United States. I should declare that I’ve had the privilege and pleasure of being on the journey with Deb in Australia for the last seven years as a fellow director of Adopt Change. Knowing you as I do, Deb, it occurred to me that we could describe you as the “accidental social entrepreneur.” Is that fair?
Deborra-lee: I love that you call me the accidental social entrepreneur because that is exactly what it is. As you know, my journey with this whole issue began as a knee-jerk reaction to something I read in the paper about a woman who had adopted a child in China and couldn’t bring her back. I just remember feeling so incensed that there was a child who could have a loving family, but because of bureaucracy, it wasn’t happening. I remember that day I wrote down: “drop off dry-cleaning and ring the Sydney Morning Herald.” That is exactly what I did.
After that, we got an editorial on the front page, and they referred to “Deborra-lee and her action lobby group.” I was like, “Where would they be?” As soon as I realized how “under the rug” that issue had been for so many years—because so many people contacted me after that and said, “Please keep talking. Please say something because it hasn’t been talked about”—my journey began. When I first started speaking out, I used the wrong syntax; I’m sure I said the wrong things, and I had many people coming at me from every direction, including the anti-adoption culture, which I soon discovered and we can go into more depth on later. People told me to keep speaking out because, as Hugh and I are well-known and have two adopted children, many people would come up to me in the street saying, “I would love to adopt, but I can’t; it’s just so hard.” My big question was: Why? I am a justice freak; when I see something that’s not right, I feel compelled to act.
I’m not the sort of person who has to have an “issue.” There are some people who go out there and need an issue just to fight the good fight. I wasn’t looking for it. I just felt passionate that this was wrong, especially after I had traveled the world and seen this scenario. I saw all these people who wanted to take on the job of parenting a child that needed a family. I’m just like, “Hang on, why isn’t this working?” And I’ve had a long lesson in why it’s not working.
John: So the paper reports “Deborra-lee and her action group,” you look around and wonder where the group is. What happened next?
Deborra-lee: Yes, there was no action lobby group! My publicist, Victoria Buckham, simply said that I wasn’t talking to any more of the press that had contacted me until I had spoken to the Prime Minister. I was like, “Oh God, how did I get here so quickly?” The action lobby group came when I met the likes of you and other like-minded people who stood up and recognized that children were not being served and we needed to do something.
John: I described you as an accidental social entrepreneur because you ended up founding a social enterprise.
Deborra-lee: I guess. Well, I did, but there was no structure to it. It wasn’t a planned, thought-out structure; it was an organic evolution from a great need, and I was literally winging it every step of the way. As you know, this organization was run on the “smell of a greasy rag.” We didn’t have funding or a structure; we were just trying to gather a board together. We crawled toward becoming an entity and established National Adoption Awareness Week.
John: So, Deb, you could say you accidentally founded one social enterprise. Once is an accident…
Deborra-lee: Once is an accident?
John: …and twice is downright careless. You went and did it again in America. Tell us, how did you go about founding a social enterprise in the United States and what is that about?
Deborra-lee: That was also an accident in a way. What happened was, I had a forum in Australia to speak at the Press Gallery about the history of adoption—where we’ve come from and why we are in a place that isn’t very healthy. Since I was living in New York, I went to as many informed people as I could find to be armed with information, knowledge, wisdom, and facts so that I could present the argument. In New York, I gathered a great group of people who work within the adoption community in Washington and in Congress, and I had them educate me.
We were so successful in Australia at getting our message across, raising awareness, and bringing the topic out of the cupboard after it had been ignored for decades. I feel Adopt Change has been successful in putting so much energy into this that it’s now on the table, we’re directing it, and things are shifting. Because of that success, people in the US came to me. We had coffee, and I felt like I was just a tool being used—in a good way. They said they wanted to do the same thing because they had tried raising awareness and it hadn’t worked.
The same week those people came to me, I got a call from a young Australian guy who was new in New York and working in advertising. He had seen the work we were doing in Australia and wanted to volunteer his creative skills. It was serendipitous; everything just came together. I have to preface this by saying that by the time we started this, I had been working in Australia for ten years, and it took everything out of me—it took a lot of energy, passion, drive, and late hours. I was in New York doing board meetings for Australia at odd times. I told the US group I was happy to help put it together, but running it is a lot.
We went about doing the creative. This guy, Sam, came up with a fantastic creative concept which we nuanced with my “adoption rock stars” to ensure we had the right messaging. We slowly gathered a fantastic board and started fundraising, and then I went to England. We couldn’t find a CEO, and I think that is so important—the CEO who champions the organization and runs it is a vital piece. I was not going to be content with anything less than a perfect fit. I ended up in Europe, and a friend said I must meet her brother in London. I met this guy for a two-hour meeting. He was very happy in the north of England with his two kids and family. He had a great job, but after two hours, I talked him into coming to New York to be the CEO. He is the brother of Hugh Evans. I’m sure you’re aware that Hugh Evans runs the Global Citizen Festival. He’s created a movement around poverty, which I’m also involved in because poverty is a major reason why children are abandoned and left looking for families.
John: This organization you founded in America is called Hopeland. Can you tell me what it’s about and why it has that name?
Deborra-lee: Hopeland has evolved from my education on the issue. In Australia, I was addressing adoption because that was the piece that was broken there; people were waiting five to ten years, which is ridiculous, and the departments weren’t putting energy into a system that works for everyone. Through that work, I kept looking at the big picture. Hopeland addresses the “big picture” of why so many children are abandoned or orphaned. Many of these “orphans” actually have living parents who relinquish them in the hope that they will get an education or find a better home—which is not okay.
I evolved my education to try and look holistically at the root causes: poverty, mental health issues, dysfunctional families, maternal health, and education in developing countries. It’s about making it so that a child is not in a position where they have to be up for adoption, though adoption remains a big part of the puzzle when it needs to be. As we know, in Australia’s foster care system, there are about 40,000 kids who are permanently removed. Those children should not be stuck in a foster care system; they should be adopted.
John: Can you tell me about your own personal journey? You’ve mentioned you have two lovely kids, Oscar and Ava. What fired your passion for connecting children with permanent, loving families? I know you experienced the system as it was at its worst in Australia.
Deborra-lee: I just don’t think anyone should be alone. What does it feel like to be alone? You have a mum and dad who’ve got your back and teach you right from wrong. As I said, I’ve traveled the world. I was in Cambodia looking at two-year-olds sniffing glue. There were no adults around; they were just children left there. It’s heartbreaking to me. I can’t tolerate the thought of a child not having someone there to protect them. We know the terrible things that can happen when there are no adults around—abuse and vulnerability to predators. It’s such a heinous situation that, knowing this, I cannot stay silent. I just do my little bit to bring attention to it. So many people have different skill sets they can contribute.
John: Deb, I’m not sure many people appreciate the gravitational force of your effort. You’ve pulled some of the most powerful and passionate people in the world into this cause: presidents and prime ministers like Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Tony Abbott, and Malcolm Turnbull, as well as Hollywood rock stars and expert child welfare professionals. How have you managed to get all of these people involved, and who among them has really struck you with their commitment?
Deborra-lee: These are the people who can make a difference. To shift anything, there has to be policy, and for that, you need political leaders at the helm. I’m fortunate to be in a position where I get to meet these people. Chelsea Clinton is a good friend of mine, and when she was traveling in Africa with her father, she invited me to be part of the delegation. I accepted because I always hear third-hand information about what is happening in Ethiopia or elsewhere. I thought if I went, I could be in the villages, talk to the locals, and see up close what was really going on. It was an amazing experience; I visited eight African countries in six days and traveled with President Clinton, who is a great storyteller.
President Clinton was the first to start changing the tone in America around adoption. He established that if parents haven’t been involved for eighteen or nine months, they lose rights, giving the child the chance to have a permanent, loving family. He and Hillary Clinton have made looking after adoption and foster care part of their political agenda. He’s a great leader.
Tony Abbott was the first Australian prime minister we spoke to who saw the sense in this and took it on. I don’t think Tony Abbott or his chief of staff, Peta Credlin, initially realized how entrenched the bureaucracy was in resisting change. It was a shock to them how big a shift needed to happen. Tony Blair is also very involved; I directed a piece for his Faith Foundation. He travels the world and has tried to hook me up with people in England. I’m trying to make this an international effort; we need an international summit with leaders from all over the world. What is more important than the next generation? Family isn’t even a priority in the UN Millennium Goals, which I find shocking.
John: In Australia, we still have the advocacy of the Deputy Prime Minister, and the current Prime Minister also continues to support the idea that adoption can be part of a modern family mix.
Deborra-lee: Absolutely. Malcolm Turnbull is on board.
John: This podcast typically concerns itself with the business of organizations needing to know their audiences and leveraging technology. In the non-profit world, the “cause-related marketplace” is every bit as competitive as the business world. How have you gone about building an audience and growing these organizations?
Deborra-lee: I should have a really good answer for that, but as I said, I’m “accidental,” so I more or less fell into it. You know what you do? Delegation. I surround myself with a team of people who work in social media, such as yourself and my PR people, who know how to leverage Instagram, FaceTime, Snapchat, and everything else to get the message out there. You have to know your strengths and delegate to the people who know how to work the systems.
John: You and the Adopt Change team have attracted support from the Packer and Pratt family foundations. I heard Sam Lipski from the Pratt Foundation say that, for him, it was as much about the passion of the team and their ability to get things done as it was the cause. Did that surprise you?
Deborra-lee: Well, look at the Pratt Foundation—everyone is asking them for funding. They aren’t silly. They can see authenticity and passion; they recognize people who really want to make a difference versus those who are just “jobbing.”
Passion counts for so much, sometimes even over expertise and skill. If you have passion—like “necessity is the mother of invention”—your passion drives you to the end goal, and you get creative along the way. I had no experience with boards or social organizations. I literally am the accidental entrepreneur; you gave me that title because I was tripping and falling more often than not through this whole experience.
John: You mentioned social media, and I wanted to ask how significant the rise of digital technology is in social enterprise. I noticed Hugh has over 22 million Facebook likes, so you likely understand the magnification power of these platforms.
Deborra-lee: It’s extraordinary. I find it both fabulous and terrifying. We could go into that in another podcast!
John: When founding an organization, one hopes it will eventually have a life of its own and not always be dependent on the founder. Have you thought much about succession plans?
Deborra-lee: It’s like a relationship; it’s knowing when to get in and when to get out to maximize impact. In this area, there is major burnout. It takes a lot to sustain that passion and the minutiae of running an organization. Visionaries and founders need to give their all and then know when it’s time to extricate and transition the organization into a working entity that gets on with the job.
John: You’re living in New York, you have a place here in Bondi, and you’re traveling between them alongside your core business of acting and directing. What’s next for you?
Deborra-lee: Slowing down! [Laughs] I am trying to be smart about choosing my passions and am getting back to my artistic core. I am very creative and love my art. When we are honest with ourselves and doing what we should be doing in the moment, everyone benefits. The ripple effect of being true to yourself and authentic affects not only your family and friends but the world at large. There’s a lot to be said about creating joy, happiness, and peace.
John: So, it’s about living in the moment for a bit.
Deborra-lee: Yes, really organically following what my heart is telling me to do.
John: Finally, reflecting on the decade you’ve spent with these social enterprises, what are the most significant things you’ve learned regarding founding, mobilizing passion, and effecting policy?
Deborra-lee: I think of Margaret Mead’s famous quote. You often think you want to change something, but it feels overwhelming—governments are big, and you feel you can’t do anything. She said it just takes one impassioned citizen to make a shift. This experience taught me that by standing up for what you truly believe and uniting with like-minded people, you create energy, which in turn creates change. We’ve seen that change happen, and that has been the most thrilling thing for me. When I started, I was just angry about the injustice; I didn’t really foresee that you could actually make a difference. This has taught me that anyone, anywhere, just by believing and being passionate, can really make a difference.
John: Deborra-lee, thank you.
Deborra-lee: You’re welcome.